Wednesday, February 3, 2016

Sans/Frisk?

     The conversation I will be referring to will be posted at the end. So, if anyone knows me well enough, they would recognize that I...eh...greatly dislike Renee (and her many names) on DeviantArt, not because of any of her views or opinions, but rather, because I feel like she behaves like a spoilt brat and throws a temper tantrum when anyone ever disagrees with her, even if they cite evidence and she is truly incorrect, but all that aside, this post is not about that. It has to do with her, but is not actually about her. And if you are still wondering what this post is about, then I ask you to raise your eyes a few inches and am wondering why you clicked on this post in the first place.
     So, Renee posted a piece of artwork that depicted Sans and (adult) Frisk cuddling, but at the time I did not know that Frisk was intended to be an adult. I also did not realize that this was a chick that I had already had issues with in the past (because she created a new account, as she tends to). Still, the artwork was cute, so I complimented it, though I did give a side comment that I did not understand the pairing, because again, I did not realize this was an AU or whatever, because despite what Renee will say, I think there is enough evidence in the game to presume that at the oldest, Frisk is a teenager, but I will touch on that in a later post.
     What this is really about, is the pairing. I know I don't do these types of posts a lot (or...ever, except on my Hetalia blog) I have actually seen a lot of artwork for this, and it surprised me quite a bit, to be honest. Personally, I don't usually pair anyone together; I'm just not one for shipping characters, but this one truly just baffled me.
     So, a few things: Is this pairing wrong (as in, morally so)? and is it something that I believe is a possibility, canon wise. I could easily answer both of these questions right now with my opinions, but that's not how I work.
     Is it morally wrong to ship Frisk and Sans? Honestly, my answer to this is: it depends. I will use ReneeIsDetermined as an example again. We don't know how old Sans is, but we can presume he is an adult and I will say why in a moment. But in her Alternate Universe, Frisk is also an adult. This means that there is no pedophilia or ephebophilia occurring, because they are both depicted as legally consenting adults. Can I say this is wrong? No. Can I say that Renee is a pedophile, or is supporting pedophilia through these pictures and her support of the pairing? No to that one, as well. And as much as I have complained about her in the past, I have never once accused her of such, and it is, in my perspective, wrong to do so. How is it pedophilia if they are both adults, and met when they were either, both children, or both adults? Saying that it is wrong in a moral sense because Frisk used to be a child, or because Frisk is a child in an Alternate Universe to the one which Renee draws, is stupid. The only way I could fathom this argument at all is if Sans was an adult when he met a child Frisk and when she grew up, then they became romantically involved, but that is not the case in this, and even then, it is debatable. Think of Hetalia (if you know the anime). Is it wrong to pair France and America together because France would have been an adult when America still would have been a child, physically? Probably not. So, since we don't know how old monsters can live to be, and when they are considered adults, how can we say the same is true for an adult Frisk and Sans, even if Sans knew the human when s/he was a child? Oh, speaking of...How do we know that Sans is an adult? Well, this is difficult because we don't know how similar the monster world is to the human world. All we can really do is speculate. But, I will prevent my evidence for why I believe he is a grown up. For one thing, he is the owner of the house that he and Papyrus live in, and this has been specifically stated by Papyrus. Sans owns the house and, provided they have bills, pays the mortgage, because Papyrus said he "pays for it". Not only does this mean he probably makes more money than we would initially think (which I believe was the point of this conversation in general), but it also tells us that, provided the underground world works similarly to ours, that he is legally an adult. So then we need to define that. We have no real way of knowing the legal age of majority in the Underground, but in many countries in modern times, it is eighteen years, while in some places it is as young as sixteen or as old as twenty. Now, I know Gaijin Goombah claims that a lot of the elements in the game and monsters are based on Irish culture and mythology, and he makes solid points with his evidence, I agree with MatPat (Game Theory) that Mt. Ebott is part of Eagleland from the Mother (Earthbound) series. If you have no idea what I'm talking about, please check out this theory here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYdDUXyFocY Although I do not think this has ever actually been confirmed, it seems that Eagleland is based on America, and if mt. Ebott is part of that country, then I think we can more or less assume (you know what happens when you do that) that the age of majority in the monster world is eighteen, or at least, the monster equivalent of such. So how old is Frisk? Well, there's no real way of knowing. Sure, we are referred to as a child and a kid, but not only are we guessing the age of majority with very little evidence, we don't even know if that matters. Let's be real, people are not suddenly not called kids when they turn eighteen. My father has referred to a twenty FIVE year old as a "kid" before, so clearly that isn't the case. Still, presuming Frisk is actually a child by monster standards and the age of majority matches that of the United States, the oldest Frisk could be is seventeen and the youngest Sans could be is eighteen. That's not a problem, right? My boyfriend is a year older than me and no one accuses him of pedophilia even though he turned eighteen before me. Well, there is still an issue.
None of that matters. I know, I know, why am I lecturing you on stuff that I'm going t disqualify anyway? Well, I wanted to make a point. The age gap between Sans and Frisk may be very small, as seen in my comparison of possible ages. But we need to remember the difference between species as well, and gap in maturity. I said I am pretty positive Sans is an adult, and part of that is because, not only his owning of the house he resides in, but also his occupation. He is a sentry. This is a job that probably would not be given to a child, even in the world of monsters. And to be honest, he seems older than even just eighteen or nineteen to me, but that's just a personal opinion. However, what really matters here? Not even his maturity or age, but his perception. He works multiple jobs and own a house, he takes care of his little brother, and acts as a judge before we meet the King. Clearly, despite the jokes and pranks, he is in most senses of the word, "grown up" regardless of his age. But he also seems to see Frisk as a child, to some extent. Sans refers to Frisk as "kid" several times. I may call someone who is nineteen "just a kid", or tell my boyfriend that he's still a kid, but I would never greet my boyfriend as "kid" or "child". I feel like if one party is able to refer to the other as "kid", then they should not be in a romantic or sexual relationship together, because that tells me either, he is older than him/her by a good amount, or at the very least, he sees himself as older than Frisk, either physically or mentally, by a good amount. And in my opinion, if you see your partner as a kid, you should not be their partner. So, is it morally wrong? I would say this depends on a case by case basis. When you have Frisk portrayed as a little child, especially pre-pubescent and Sans is quite clearly an adult, then yes, I think the pairing is wrong on an ethical level, and I'm sure I will get hate for this if my blog ever becomes big enough for people to actually comment. If both parties are adults...I might not like the pairing, but I cannot say it is wrong, even if Sans knew the human as a kid or teenager. When Sans is an adult and Frisk is a teenager...eh, maybe. Again, case by case basis.
     So now that we have that covered, What do I think of the pairing? In regards to opinion, I have already answered this above. I don't believe a character that is older enough to be calling Frisk "kid" and "kiddo" should be paired with the human unless it is an alternate universe, but that is my own thought. Canon-wise, I have a similar thought process, and a lot of my argument can be seen in the comments at the bottom of this post, but I will iterate it here as well. Personally, I don't feel like Sans is even your friend at first, in the game. He follows you, because he is either trying to fulfill his promise or because he is suspicious, in my mind. Sans protects you because he promised Toriel to protect ANY human that left the Ruins, and apparently if he had not made that promise, he would have killed you even in a pacifist run, unless his "You'd be dead where you stand" was all in good fun, but somehow I doubt it. I do believe he warms up to the player, but he still seems to see Frisk as a child, friends with him/her or not. Obviously, the only person who could really answer this is Toby Fox, and I just don't think he will say either way, because to be honest, it doesn't matter a whole lot for the purposes of character development or game play.
     Still, my opinion aside, you do what you want. I don't own the characters so I can't complain. The only person who could have any real issue with it, in my opinion, is the creator.
 
 Here is the conversation. I'm not good at screen shots, so I just copy and pasted it. 
jossyrose Nov 9, 2015   Traditional Artist
Cute artwork...though I've never really understood support for this pairing...

"We're all mad here!"
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:iconreneeisdetermined:
ReneeIsdetermined Nov 9, 2015  Professional Digital Artist
it's kinda obvious if you've played the game

Stay on the good path or you're gonna have a bad time. -uO
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:iconjossyrose:
jossyrose Nov 18, 2015   Traditional Artist
I've played the game half a dozen times on all runs...I am seeing no obviousness.

"We're all mad here!"
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:iconreneeisdetermined:
ReneeIsdetermined Nov 18, 2015  Professional Digital Artist
it's still obvious owo

Stay on the good path or you're gonna have a bad time. -uO
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:iconjossyrose:
jossyrose Nov 18, 2015   Traditional Artist
Alright then, please enlighten me, in what way is it "obvious"?

"We're all mad here!"
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:iconreneeisdetermined:
ReneeIsdetermined Nov 18, 2015  Professional Digital Artist
i shouldn't have to tell ya~

Stay on the good path or you're gonna have a bad time. -uO
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:iconjossyrose:
jossyrose Nov 18, 2015   Traditional Artist
So in other words, it's not obvious because there is no evidence for it. Gotcha ^.^

"We're all mad here!"
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:iconreneeisdetermined:
ReneeIsdetermined Nov 19, 2015  Professional Digital Artist
it is obvious you just don't get it

Stay on the good path or you're gonna have a bad time. -uO
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(1 Reply)
ReneeIsdetermined Nov 19, 2015  Professional Digital Artist
it is obvious you just don't get it

Stay on the good path or you're gonna have a bad time. -uO
Reply

Devious Comments (Add yours)

  
:iconjossyrose:
jossyrose Nov 19, 2015   Traditional Artist
I doubt that you've even played the game lol

"We're all mad here!"
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:iconreneeisdetermined:
ReneeIsdetermined Nov 19, 2015  Professional Digital Artist
i have played the game, i have the game dude. so that joke's on you

Stay on the good path or you're gonna have a bad time. -uO
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:iconjossyrose:
jossyrose Nov 19, 2015   Traditional Artist
What joke? I was seriously beginning to doubt that you have actually played it. You are claiming that it is obvious if you have played the game, yet are unable to state any evidence to back this up. I have played the game on every possible run and have found all the secrets, and I am still unable to find any "obviousness". I could argue your claim better than you seem to be, to be quite honest. Whatever, at least I have some material for a new blog post.

"We're all mad here!"
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:icontrueokamiamaterasu:
TrueOkamiAmaterasu Nov 19, 2015  Student Writer
Don't you have anything better to do than to be an asshole? clearly you don't, Sans is fiercely protective over Frisk in the main storyline and even goes out of his way to try to give you the benefit of doubt even in genocide, because he really DOESN'T want to fight you, he's seen way too many timelines, too many resets, he doesn't want to have to fight a friend over and over and over again, the thing about this pairing is Frisk is a self insert character, meaning we're allowed to make them whatever gender we want, whatever sexuality we want, and even whatever past story we want and future for them because we REALLY don't know

ZAT IS PRINCE LUDVIG VON KOOPA TO YOU!
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:iconjossyrose:
jossyrose Nov 19, 2015   Traditional Artist
I politely ask you to refrain from swearing whilst speaking to me, thank you. Anyway, I do not see how I have been what you have accused me of being. My original comment was posted on the ninth, where I complimented the artwork, and simply stated my opinion that I do not understand the pairing. When I posted the comment, I did not even realize that this is an AU where Frisk is older, which is why I even mentioned the pairing in the first place. She then said that it was "obvious" in the game, which is why I even responded back. To me, a person who has played and STUDIED the game, there was no hint at this pairing, mostly because Frisk is said to be a child of indeterminable age. I said I doubted she played the game, though did not accuse her outright of not doing so, because she was unable to tell me why it was so evident, and only redundantly stated that it was "obvious" kind of like a student who tries to answer a question about a book they haven't read. Since then, she presented her evidence, and I presented my own. I apologized for any confusion, and I have tried to be quite civil throughout this.
And I do believe you are incorrect about Sans being "fiercely" protective over the protagonist. The only time he even mentions protecting you at all at the MTT Restaurant is when he says "You haven't died once", saying that he has done a good job keeping a promise. He never really helps us along our journey, though I will say he is there, likely keeping watch over us. The thing is, as he states himself, the only reason he is even doing so is because he promised a sad woman whom he did not know well to protect ANY human who came out of the ruins, not Frisk specifically, and not because of any apparent infatuation of his own. He continues to keep an eye on you in the neutral and genocide route, even if you have killed Papyrus and Toriel, and this can be revealed through subtle hints of text the game will give you in certain instances, so no matter if he likes you or hates you in this game, he keeps an eye on you. Like I said, playing this game made me feel like he was suspicious of me, likely because I was a human, and they have their own horror stories of humans just as we have ours of monsters. Even in the Genocide run, he does not give us the benefit of the doubt. In several neutral endings he tells us we are not welcome or to "go to Hell".
Anyway, I do  not understand you bringing up Frisk being a self-insert character. I know that. Personally, I believe Frisk to be a teenager, though I know this is an unpopular theory, and I don't care what sexuality, gender, or backstory anyone gives the protagonist. I think it is interesting to see what people can make of this character. However, the game does describe Frisk as a child or kid several times, and even Sans will call you "kid" or "kiddo".
Either way, have a nice day, I suppose.

"We're all mad here!"
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:iconreneeisdetermined:
ReneeIsdetermined Nov 19, 2015  Professional Digital Artist
frisk is the main character and you see sans quite often sans has even promised to protect frisk because toriel asked him to

Stay on the good path or you're gonna have a bad time. -uO
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:iconjossyrose:
jossyrose Nov 19, 2015   Traditional Artist
Well honestly, I presumed you would use the fact that in the pacifist run, when Sans and Frisk go to the MTT restaurant, if you look in the data files (and I have confirmed this) the music which plays is actually entitled mus_sansdate. He also jokes around with the protagonist a lot, even prank calling you (sometimes, it's a random chance) to ask if your refrigerator is running, which seems to be something he does a lot with the people he cares about such as Papyrus and Toriel, but we cannot confirm that he doesn't behave this way around strangers as well, considering the first time he meets the protagonist, he pranks them.
I will concede that he is present a lot in the game, but to me, it kind of seems that he doesn't trust the protagonist. He mentions that s/he would be "dead where they stand" if he had not promised Toriel to protect any human which came out of the ruins, but that's the thing: it seems that the only reason he even protects Frisk is because of the promise, which means any random human who emerged from the Ruins would be protected by him. Near the end, he does seem to like Frisk if the player does not murder his brother or Toriel, and especially, if the player then goes on to complete the true ending. But throughout the game, it felt like he was keeping an eye on me not out of protection of me, but for the other monsters, as if he didn't trust me, and rightfully so when you consider (SPOILERS) he possibly has access to the other timelines and at the very least knows of their existence.
Either way, I will admit, when I first commented that I didn't understand the pairing, I was actually referencing the pairing in the canon universe where Frisk is a teenager at the oldest, but a lot of people characterize them as a little child. I now have noticed that this is an AU. I do apologize.
The only thing which kept me continuing the conversation was your suggestion that it was "obvious" in the game, which I still disagree, and I took that as insinuating that I was not clever or perceptive enough to have caught on. No hard feelings. And like I said, if anything, this conversation has given me a new blog topic, so I thank you for that.

"We're all mad here!"
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